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Green Building Discussion
Topic: Greywater Systems
Discussion Participants:
- Amos Satterly asks about greywater systems
- Jason Dries-Daffner asks some more questions
- GIMCB (?) chimes in
- John Abrams with some experience
- John Wilson with some sources
- Bill Oakley tells of his experiences
- Curtis Seyfried suggests the City Farmer web site
- Oliver Drerup reminds us of the Toronto house
- Alex Wilson with some practical points
- Bruce Coldham with Doug Clayton's system
- Buzz Burrell with more experience
- Marc Rosenbaum designs for future greywater
All postings are the opinion of the writer, and BuildingGreen can take no responsibility for their accuracy or appropriateness.
Amos Satterly asks about greywater systems
From: Satterlee
Sent: Monday, December 30, 1996 9:18 PM
We are seriously considering moving to Connecticut in the next year or two. What do you do with greywater during the winter? What do you do with compost during the winter?
Thanks in advance.
amos
Top of fileJason Dries-Daffner asks some more questions
From: Jason Dries-Daffner/SF
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 1996 11:34 AM
Two related questions:
1. Can anyone suggest good books,articles or other media on retrofitting existing plumbing systems to utilize grey water?
2. Is there any effect of compost in transit (temporary food scrap storage in a kitchen container) on indoor air quality or health?
GIMCB (?) chimes in
From: GIMCB@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 09, 1997 7:37 PM
This topic is of interest to myself as well, however, I don't have any source information for you. I am also interested in information on "green" ways to conduct site work, paving and surfacing, tree protection methods, and storm water drainage. If anyone has any information, Please fore ward.
John Abrams with some experience
From: John R. Abrams
Sent: Friday, January 10, 1997 8:13 AM
I have to admit that my own lack of response to the graywater query came from neither lack of interest or holiday cheer, but a simple case of too busy/too lazy. Sorry.
We have done a number of composting/gray water systems in the Northeast, and it's rather a large subject. Since Massachusetts revised Title 5 (the state sanitary code) to allow alternative sewage disposal systems in many circumstances, they are becoming more widespread.
EBN did a fine piece in their July/August '96 issue about Ecological Wastewater Treatment, but it was about central facilities which treat black and gray water together. In fact, I've been meaning to suggest to them that they follow up with an in-depth article about systems that separate fecal matter and urine from greywater at the source, before either becomes a pollutant and more difficult to convert to useful nutrients (Alex and Nadav - I hereby make this suggestion.)
Gray water can be treated inside buildings, in deep soil beds. It can also be treated outdoors. In climates with significant freezing this is usually done in leaching trenches that are deep enough to resist freezing and shallow enough to keep the nutrients in the root zone of the plants above. Sometimes this is accomplished through the use of heavy mulches above the trenches.
The Clivus Multrum company (617) 491 - 0051, has some good literature, and they sell components for complete systems. Talk to Don Mills. Clivus New England (508) 794-9400 is a separate company that uses Clivus products, adds some of its own, and sells/installs complete systems. Talk to Bill Wall.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 508 / 645-2618 (W) jabrams@smc.vineyard.net John R. Abrams 508 / 645-3182 (F) P O Box 359 Chilmark, MA 02535
John Wilson with some sources
From: John
Sent: Friday, January 10, 1997 2:57 AM
For info on systems that utilize graywater system. http://www.slip.net/%7Eckent/earthship/ The earthships use indoor planter beds. As long as the outside pipes and tank(s) are installed below the frost line, you should not have a problem with storage. Regards, John Wilson
Slippery Rock U. (I love that name) has info on gray water systems and could probably help you.
http://www.sru.edu/depts/chhs/pree/ms3/harmony.htm
In addition, an earthship site that utilize graywater system.
http://www.slip.net/%7Eckent/earthship/
The earthships use indoor planter beds. As long as the outside pipes and tank(s) are installed below the frost line, you should not have a problem with storage.
Regards, John Wilson
Bill Oakley tells of his experiences
From: bill oakley
Sent: Friday, January 10, 1997 10:07 AM
amos asks about gray water systems some years ago i had my eyes opened by a very eco concerned client while planning a system the question was asked what is gray water by their definintion not much bath and washing machine water were ruled out because of the high probability that they would contain human fecal contamination this building was to serve as a nusrery and so hand washing sinks were ruled out leaving not much to be called gray water were they too extreme the customer is always right
wili
Curtis Seyfried suggests the City Farmer web site
From: Nadav Malin
Sent: Friday, January 10, 1997 6:46 AM
Take a look at the city farmer site at http://www.cityfarmer.org/ They have information of composting, greywater systems, compost toilets, community gardens, etc.
Great site.
Curtis Seyfried cseyfrie@ix.netcom.com
Oliver Drerup reminds us of the Toronto house
From: cmhc
Sent: Friday, January 10, 1997 2:45 PM
Please be aware of the grey water system prototyped in the CMHC 'Toronto Healthy House'. The on-site water system eliminates the demand for municipal drinking water. A self-contained sewage treatment system discharges only clean water. Annual water consumption zero. Information and system details are available at: www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca look under what's new / Toronto Healthy House.
odrerup
Alex Wilson with some practical points
From: Alex Wilson
Sent: Friday, January 10, 1997 7:27 AM
Amos Satterlee inquired about the appropriateness of graywater systems in cold climates.
As far as I know, they work fine as long as the distribution is below ground. Many oldtimers up our way (in Vermont) separate graywater and have it go into a separate leaching field or drywell from their sewage. The idea is that it will prolong the life of their standard leach field.
Unfortunately, and perhaps the reason you don't hear much about graywater in most states, is that most state plumbing codes do not recognize graywater as being any different from blackwater--Vermont considers them to be the same, for example. California recently passed a statewide provision for separation and use of graywater for BELOW-GRADE irrigation, and that should help to convince other states that it's not such a bad idea. Good luck.
Alex Wilson Environmental Building News
Bruce Coldham with Doug Clayton's system
From: Bruce Coldham
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 1997 11:48 AM
Doug. Clayton has a nice and simple system for residential graywater treatment that he installed some years ago ... before the state of NH relaised that they had to declare such simple things illegal. He has a composting toilet (full of worms) for the fecal/urine material. His grey water system involves a 300 gal. (I think) collection tank and a dosing syphon that periodically empties the tank into a bark-mulch filled trench about 18" below grade. I think he even moves the distribution pipe around every few years - I guess he figures it's easier to shift the pipe than the nutrient laden mulch, but you could ask him
GAP MOUNTAIN PERMACULTURE Douglas Clayton 603-532-7321 9 Old County Rd. Jaffrey, NH. 03452
Even in a freezing climate, it seems important to keep the graywater distribution happening near the surface - where the microbial activity occurs, rather than distributing down 4' 0" or so.
Bruce Coldham
Buzz Burrell with more experience
From: Buzz Burrell
Sent: Saturday, January 11, 1997 9:30 PM
In response to an old question about using greywater, Alex wrote: >Unfortunately, and perhaps the reason you don't hear much about graywater >in most states, is that most state plumbing codes do not recognize >graywater as being any different from blackwater--Vermont considers them to >be the same, for example. California recently passed a statewide provision >for separation and use of graywater for BELOW-GRADE irrigation, and that >should help to convince other states that it's not such a bad idea. Good >luck.
This reply says it exactly. Cold climate has little relevence to the question of greywater use; the crux of the issue is not technical, but instead is political - getting that permit.
The California code, which is being emulated in some fashion in other states (like this one) permits a greywater system that is so limited as to make it marginally worth spending the extra money. Under this code, my feeling is that if you have enough water for irrigation its not worth the extra cost. If you still want a greywater system, the easiest implementation plan is to simply hire an engineer to design your septic system who already specializes in these (or maybe its just me who is too lazy or impatient to contend with regulations).
The reason I'm writing this though, is just an hour ago a friend called me and described what is a very intriguing alternative septic design, but only for a committed owner. The plan is to save hassles and money by installing a standard septic/leach field, except for one detail: the grey and black water septic pipes are kept separate until they leave the house. A "Y" valve is installed in the greywater line just before they converge. A turn of the valve sends the greywater either into the regular septic system, or wherever the owner feel comfortable using it, even surface irrigation if the owner has studied the issue, uses biodegradable soaps, etc. Needless to say, until the permit is issued, the other half of that "Y" is capped.
Supposedly, when the inspector asked my friend about that valve, she answered "its for the future when greywater is legal" and he smiled and issued the permit.
Buzz Burrell Geneva Development Corporation Boulder, CO
Marc Rosenbaum designs for future greywater
From: Marc J. Rosenbaum
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 1997 4:37 PM
I have been designing in separate graywater and blackwater drain piping in homes for the same reason - graywater is a resource (heat, nutrients, water) and someone in the future may want to use it, even if we don;t want to or can't today.
Marc
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