 |
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Green Building Discussion
Topic: Treated Poles or No... in a Pole House
Discussion Participants:
- Kirk Lively asks about poles for a pole house
- Marcoplos@aol.com
- Andrea Warchaizer thinks about concrete piers
- Alan Wickstrom with a source for poles
- Nadav Malin suggests plastic poles
- Alan Wickstrom defends CCA treating
- Huck DeVenzio gives the industry perspective
- David Kibbey makes a pitch for ACQ preservative
- Arnie Katz tells about his system
- Kirk Lively expresses concern about CCA treating
- Terry Brennan with some experience
- Kirk Lively on how to find ACQ treated wood
- Cameron Duncan explains CCA treatment
- David Kibbey responds with ACQ source
- Alan Wickstrom with more ACQ info sources
- Matt Kitterman wonders about the lifecycle
All postings are the opinion of the writer, and BuildingGreen can take no responsibility for their accuracy or appropriateness.
Kirk Lively asks about poles for a pole house
From: Kirk Lively
Sent: Monday, December 16, 1996 10:33 AM
I've been listening in for a couple of weeks, but have never posted here before.
I am considering construction of a pole house (poles all the way to the roof line) in North Texas as my primary residence. I am very concerned about using non-toxic building materials both from the standpoint of introducing contaminants into the surrounding soils as well as into the air inside the home. My question is:
What would you recommend to be used for the primary construction poles?
>From what I have read so far, some sort of pressure treated pole is a must unless I am willing to have them rot out after about 10 years. If so, is there a non-toxic pressure treatment that is effective? And if not, are there any ideas of using a sleeve or some sort of encapsulation to prevent leaching into the soils?
Will painting these poles inside the house protect the occupants from the pressure treating products?
Kirk Lively Fort Worth, TX
Top of fileMarcoplos@aol.com
From: Marcoplos@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 1996 8:23 PM
Hi Dona, EBN ran an article a few years ago about various aspects of treated wood and a study done in Florida, I believe, was mentioned in which the researchers found that chemicals leaching from treated foundation posts made it less than a foot in a couple of decades. This made me think that using treated wood for deck and house foundations is probably fine, but I wouldn't use it for making planters.
As for paint, it would probably degrade fairly quickly in the ground.
Mark
Andrea Warchaizer thinks about concrete piers
From: AWarch@aol.com
Sent: Monday, December 16, 1996 4:36 PM
My first question would be whether you are locked into a pole-type foundation, as opposed to some sort of concrete or masonry. Assuming the poles will be going right into the ground: I have heard that the "old way" of dealing with the rot problem would be to char the posts (say, about 1/2") for the whole length that will be buried plus 12" or so. Has anyone else heard of this or actually tried it?
Andrea Warchaizer
Alan Wickstrom with a source for poles
From: BuildingOnline: Alan Wickstrom
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 1996 2:23 PM
American Pole and Timber, a subsidary of Building Products Plus, is a great source for poles for pole construction. They offer consultation with every order and their web site is at: http://www.BP-Plus.com/
Alan Wickstrom BuildingOnline
Nadav Malin suggests plastic poles
From: Nadav Malin
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 1996 3:17 AM
"Lumber" products made from recycled plastic are being used as an alternative to treated wood in some applications. They tend to hold up even better than treated wood against decay. The problem is that most of them are not very strong, so they wouldn't be worth considering for a pole structure. There are a couple of exceptions, though. Trimax of Long Island makes a plastic lumber with fiberglass reinforcing that is used in structural applications. Even better might be the products sold for use as marine pilings, if you can them in a reasonable size. Seaward International makes the best of these, as far as I know. Plastic Pilings, Inc., if they're still in business, also makes them.
You can search Bruce's Oikos directory on the Web (address in footer) for addresses, and you can read a product reveiw for Seaward on our Web site (address also in footer).
As for treated poles, From the research we've seen, leaching into soils from a handful of poles wouldn't be a very serious concern, if you're talking about pressure-treated wood. I wouldn't consider creosote, which isn't pressure treated. I would take steps to isolate the poles from the home's interior, though. Can you box them in somehow? > >Will painting these poles inside the house protect the occupants from >the pressure treating products?
Only as long as the coating holds up.
Nadav
Alan Wickstrom defends CCA treating
From: BuildingOnline: Alan Wickstrom
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 1996 2:20 PM
CCA-Treated lumber has been in use for over 70 years now... The Environmental Protection Agency conducted an extensive 8 year study where it determined that the benefits of pressure-treated wood products outweighed any potential risks. Treated wood saves trees and extends the service life of lumber. Without the use of any fiberglass or plastic...
Alan Wickstrom BuildingOnline
Huck DeVenzio gives the industry perspective
From: Huck DeVenzio
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 1996 6:45 PM
(I am Huck DeVenzio and a part of the wood treating industry.) Kirk, various preservatives are used to pressure treat wood, though you will probably find only CCA poles suitable for this application. All of the liquid treatments are toxic -- their purpose is to thwart termites and fungi. CCA-treated _wood_, however, has not been found to be harmful to soil organisms or indoor air quality. Some 300,000 homes have been built with wood foundations -- treated plywood walls and treated framing -- with no evidence of air quality deterioration in tests or practice. Treated stakes are commonly used in tomato farms and vineyards with no known adverse effects. Marine life grows on and around treated piling. EPA's sole precaution in residential applications is, "Wood pressure-treated with CCA preservatives may be used inside residences as long as all sawdust and construction debris are cleaned up and disposed of after construction." For more details, visit www.hickson.com or contact me directly.
David Kibbey makes a pitch for ACQ preservative
From: IAQKibbey@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 1996 10:38 PM
I repeat: ACQ Preserve is a much safer alternative pressure treated wood, meeting all necessary testing and performance quality. Why use arsenic and chromium --despite industry claims of "harmlessness"--if you don't have to?? David Kibbey
Arnie Katz tells about his system
From: Arnie Katz
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 1996 5:47 PM
You may want to consider the system I used on my house several years ago. I poured 24" square footing pads 12" thick. On the pads, I put 8" X 8" blocks, one or two high, depending on what I needed to get out of the ground. I filled the cores w/ concrete re-inforced with a hardware cloth cylinder, with a standard foundation anchor bolt (J bolt) set into the concrete. A termite shield was placed over the block (galvanized flashing) overhanging a couple of inches all the way around) on which I placed a galvanized post anchor, which was bolted to the J bolt.
I then set 4 X 4 posts in each post anchor, which run all the way to the roof. The floor system and roof system are bolted onto the posts, which are 12' on center and can handle cantelevers in any direction of up to about 3'9".
Since many of the posts are over 20' long, and since it's hard to find 4x4's these days that don't twist up as soon as you turn your back to them, I made up my own with 2x4's and 1/2' CDX.
It solved the problem of having treated material in the house. Since the posts aren't in contact with the ground, they don't need to be treated. Depending on your soil, the holes for the pads can be dug by hand or with a very small back-hoe, minimizing damage to surrounding trees.
Structurally, it seems to work fine. On the south half of the house, I have a 3" concrete slab as finished floor/thermal mass and a 12' long by 7'high by 10" thick stone wall behind the wood stove for additional mass. I did beef up the structure a bit under all that.
We've been in the house for 5 years, including getting through Hurricane Fran with no damage, so I'm pretty confident at this point about the structural integrity.
The structural system was designed by G.Walker Hagans, GWH Architecture, 1001 Wilbea Rd., Durham, NC 27705, 919-967-9670.
Kirk Lively expresses concern about CCA treating
From: Kirk Lively
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 1996 2:59 PM
I'd be interested to hear what information you may have on this, but I have learned to distrust governmental sources!! My understanding of the copper chromium arsenate (CCA) is that it is toxic (it does contain a form of arsenic!) and there are conflicting reports of how much it leaches into the soil and how much this affects any plant life and/or ground water.
Kirk Lively Fort Worth
Terry Brennan with some experience
From: TBren46501@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 1996 12:46 AM
My information is the same, but I would like to add a few things. First, CCA is extremely toxic. That is, a very small mass of CCA can do a great deal of physiologic harm. Second, the exposures I've seen have been the result of on-site use of CCA liquid to treat the raw edge left when CCA treated wood is cut. These are generally skin absorption or hand to mouth exposures. I have also seen serious exposures when people burned CCA treated wood in stoves, fireplaces and open fires, exposure by inhalation. Third, I am not aware of any cases where sawing and sanding the material resulted in exposure, but I drove someone to the emergency room once after he had been finish sanding black walnut for three days straight. Diagnosis was toxic shock from exposure to toxins in the wood. All decay resistant woods have naturally occurring toxins in them. So, my guess is that exposure to CCA via airborne dust inhalation is possible.
Lastly, if you can't avoid them, always protect yourself when using toxic materials. -Terry
Kirk Lively on how to find ACQ treated wood
From: Kirk Lively
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 1996 3:25 PM
Where can I get more info on ACQ Preserve pressure treated wood?
Kirk Lively Fort Wort, TX email:drsinc@onramp.net
Cameron Duncan explains CCA treatment
From: EREC - Duncan, Cameron
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 1996 2:35 PM
Mr. DeVenzio and other distinguished listers:
The chromated copper arsenate (CCA), or "pressure treatment" as the chemical industry prefers to refer to it, has an interesting legacy. Alex Wilson/EBN did a reasonably good review of the concerns over wood treatments in an early EBN. In essence, CCA treated products are very useful for preserving structures that would otherwise threaten populations relying on the structure with directly attributable loss of life from wood decay exacerbated by neglent maintenance. For example, dock supports or retaining walls treated with inferior products and receiving little or no inspection may decay to the point that structural failure could result in human injury or loss of life. Another example would be the overhead beam of a school swing--if the beam decays and fails, the family of an associated injured child can, and often does, sue anyone associated with the equipment, since it is a simple, obvious "cause" of the accident. Groups relying on government funding (schools, public marinas, etc.) characteristically rely on CCA products. The effects of these inorganic arsenicals on animal and human epidemiology are documented to varying degrees. I've briefly included some of this information below. The researchers at Rutgers found that CCA was very toxic to marine life, particularyl shellfish. Product liability litigation has typically ended in settlements; however, one individual who settled with 26 of 28 companies was awarded 2/3s of a million dollars (total) from the remaining two companies that refused to settle out-of-court. There are others. The State of California sought to ban inorganic arsenicals from state playground equipment several years ago, but efforts from the wood preservative community resulted in the compromise of allowing use provided the equipment is treated with a sealer every other year. The Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) looked into it shortly thereafter. Their's is an interesting report. Some interestingly creative (in a positive way) analysis on the consumption of dislodgeabile arsenic appears to be it's strong point. Its summary, sampling methodology, and knowledge concerning samples provided them for testing were weak points. The resulting conclusion I drew from their report was in stark contrast to the "Environmental Report" issued by the American Wood Preservers Institute hailing CPSC's "four studies" (actually all segments of one) characterizing "the risk of cancer posed by arsenically treated wood playground equipment as 'negligible.'" The body of their report issued grim warnings throughout; the sampling methodology was questionable at best (a huge topic; and I have work to do); and cancer, while a common top-of-the-malady index, is not the only disease that affects the quality of life. I choose to avoid using CCA in most situations, particularly where it may be placed in exposed, tactile locations available to children. However, I applaud its use, primarily structural, where I expect little monitoring, extreme exposure, and inappropriate alternative materials. I believe it is difficult for anyone to really understand the pros and cons of this issue without digging into the details of the studies, case law, etc. Since this is tough for most of us, you have to rely on your understanding of regulatory groups, government, advocacies, manufacturers, suppliers, and any other 'authorities' I've left out. We all have to make choices in life--those choices ultimately define us. Perhaps the information that follows will help somewhat. 'Nuf said.
Best wishes to everyone for the holidays!
Cameron Duncan EREC Architect, Technical Specialist CDUNCAN@nciinc.com ********************************************* US DOE Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Clearinghouse (EREC) P. O. Box 3048 Merrifield, VA 22116 Phone: (800) 363-3732; Fax: (703) 893-0400 International: (703) 287-839; TDD: (800) 273-2957 Bulletin Board System (BBS): (800) 273-2955 Internet: (E-mail) doe.erec@nciinc.com (World Wide Web) http://erecbbs.nciinc.com (World Wide Web) http://www.eren.doe.gov *********************************************
Environmental and Occupational Health Sciences Institute INFOletter, (5:1) pp. 1, January/February 1991: "Three wood perservaive pestacides make up 97% of all the wood preservatives used. These three pesticides are considered harmful: creosote, inorganic arsenicals, and pentachlorophenol. [snip] Inorganic Arsenicals can cause cancer, birth defects, and genetic mutations in laboratory animals. Epidemiological studies with humans have shown that arsenic causes skin cancer. Arsenic also attacks the nervous system, blood forming organs, and the liver. It may also cause skin problems such as irritation and rashes. Short term health effects include headaches, dizziness, muscle spasms, delirium, and sometimes convulsions." ..... Judy & Peter Weis, Rutgers University & University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey: ...recommend substituting treated wood products with recycled plastic 'lumber' (for) uses including boat docks and piers, fencing, park benches, and playground equipment. Dr. James Sanders, The Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia: ...found high levels of arsenic in the Chesapeake Bay. Dr,. Keith Solomon, Canadian Center for Toxicology: ...found waters affected by acid rain to have an increased rate of leaching of toxic metals from treated lumber. ..... NIEHS (Natl.Inst.of Envl. Health Sciences (operated by NIH)): http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/htdocs/ARC/ARC_KC/Arsenic_Cmpds.html " There is limited evidence for the carcinogenicity of arsenic (CAS No. 7440-38-2) and the following arsenic compounds in experimental animals: arsenic pentoxide (1303-28-2), ..." " An IARC Working Group reported that there is sufficient evidence for the carcinogenicity of inorganic arsenic compounds in humans (IARC S.7, 1987)...An association between environmental exposure to arsenic through drinking water and skin cancer has been observed and confirmed." " When heated to decomposition, arsenic compounds emit toxic arsenic fumes." " Arsenic pentoxide, calcium arsenate, lead arsenate, and sodium arsenate are used in the formulation of wood preservatives. There is an increased use of arsenic trioxide by the wood preservative industry due to its use in formulating chromated copper arsenate (USDOI, 1987)." " In 1985, the sole domestic producer of arsenic ceased operation, resulting in the United States becoming completely dependent upon foreign suppliers. This dependency is anticipated to continue indefinitely (USDOI, 1988)." " The primary routes of potential human exposure to arsenic and certain arsenic compounds are inhalation, ingestion, and dermal contact." " Arsenic trioxide is the source for 97% of all arsenic products (IARC V.2, 1973; IARC V.23, 1980)...In 1990, the United States imported over 1.7 million lb of arsenic metal and 61.7 million lb of arsenic trioxide (USDOI, 1991). Arsenic trioxide was imported and then converted to arsenic acid by three major companies, one headquartered in the United States and two headquartered in the United Kingdom."
David Kibbey responds with ACQ source
From: IAQKibbey@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 1996 12:20 PM
>Where can I get more info on ACQ Preserve pressure treated wood? >
Manufacturer is Chemical Specialties, Inc., 1 Woodlawn Green, Suite 250, Charlotte, NC 28217, 800-421-8661
Ask them for distributors near you. I have names of distributors and representatives on the West Coast. They also produce "Impel Rods" and "Boracol" borate wood preservative materials.
My experience wih this material has been good.
David Kibbey
Alan Wickstrom with more ACQ info sources
From: BuildingOnline: Alan Wickstrom
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 1996 4:17 PM
The ACQ (Ammoniacal Copper Quat) chemical is manufactured by CSI, Chemical Specialties Inc., and sold to pressure treaters around the world.
Conrad Wood Preserving Co. is a pressure treated lumber manufacturer and has information on ACQ their web site at: http://www.ConradWP.com/acq.htm
ICBO, the International Conference of Building Officials, also has their Acceptance Criteria for ACQ online at: http://www.icbo.org/icboes/criteria/pg-ac078.html
+-------------- BuildingOnline ----------------+ /) Alan Wickstrom ~ President (\ / ) mailto:webhead@BuildingOnline.com ( \
Matt Kitterman wonders about the lifecycle
From: Matt Kitterman
Sent: Friday, December 20, 1996 9:04 AM
> But, aren't we interested in the life cycle of products?
Yes yes yes! And that is one issue that we passed over in the current treated lumber thread. I mean, if you want wood that has been poisoned, then someone has to apply the poison. There have to be poison manufacturing and application factories, with any and all of the associated hazards thereof.
It may be true that little of the poison leaves the wood once it is in place. But I will do without 'better' wood if there is the possibility that it's manufacture has caused environmental damage, even if I am at a 'safe distance' from that damage.
matt 46.722438 N -117.005599 W
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|